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STFC Accounts
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In the previous thread mention was made of The Thames Club accounts for 2020.It made me curious to look at our clubs accounts.
I wondered if anyone has taken a look at STFC accounts for 2020 which are available to see on The Companies House site.I am no expert (perhaps Arthur you can bring your expertise to provide an answer)
What surprised me was to see that the clubs creditors have jumped hugely from the prior year by way of £158,618 of Directors loans. There is no tangible increase in assets or bank balance reflecting this injection.
As I understand it STFC has therfore been loaded with this debt which means any potential buyer would need to have a very deep pocket to take on and satisfy this liability.There is no note or explanation to the destination of these monies or how they were utilised for the benefit of the club.
I may be barking totally up the wrong tree for which I apologise-perhaps someone else can take a look and set me right.
Best wishes
Norm
Edited by Norm at 22:43:13 on 6th October 2021
Edited by Norm at 22:44:04 on 6th October 2021
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Re: STFC Accounts
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Norm, even after the use of magic mushrooms, a habit I picked up from the Surrey Sage, I still understand double entry book-keeping and can read a set of accounts. I love them. The STFC accounts do, as you rightly point out, that there is a sum of £158,618, categorised as a long term loan to directors. There is only one Director (the man vilified by many on this forum). What you don't really understand is that this is a creditor - a sum the company owes to that man. The shareholders fund are a negative £188,618. This means that the company, the football club, is bust. It should cease trading as soon as the shareholders funds reach zero. |it must then go into administration or liquidation, as appropriate, and realise (sell) its assets to return money to creditors and shareholders in a prescribed manner. The only reason the club continues to trade (see going concern note) is that the director has guaranteed the continuance of trade for the following 12 months. In simple terms this means that Joe Dixon has funded the club out of his own pocket for this amount. It is money that could have been spent on the team, but he has had to pay the bills - gas, electricity, legal costs. answering spurious letters from our landlords, along with manager and player wages. This money has come from his pocket, not yours , not mine, not Wakes, not John Blair, not Staines Loyal ......... and we slag the man off. I believe an apology is needed.
Using the accounting information, the Thames Club accounts were indeed filed on 5 October. There is lots of information for geeks like me. For example there are lots of accounting policies relating to revenue recognition (turnover), and financing costs (interest) which relate to disclosures made in the income statement (profit and loss account0. There is no income statement. They have opted for minimal disclosure to users of rthe accounts. The interesting item here is the movement in shareholders funds - the level of solvency (see above) which have fallen from £1,142,361 in 2019 to £117,443 act the end of 2020. As soon as they reach zero, in a trading period they must cease trading etc. They are our landlords, at least until the next break in the lease term (circa 6 or 7 years). Nobody (corporate nor individual) has guaranteed their future trade - and there are still pandemic issues to be reported in their current year accounts. Thank goodness we have Joe.
That's it for accounting issues, let's look forward to Saturday. I hope we have retained the majority of the squad, as it seemed to be gelling. Personally I would appoint Rhys Paul as a player manager. However, that appointment is down to the club and the Chair ......Hopefully we will be competitive against Three bridges. See you Saturday, debtors and creditors permitting!!
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Re: STFC Accounts
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Thanks for your thoughts Arthur but even though I do not have your accounting skills there is no proof to back up your take on the situation.
All I have done is comment on the accounts -not one comment about Dixon
The club has no employees -it states that in the accounts-so no wage/salary outgoings
There is no profit & loss details to backup your guess relating to the bills
Previous years account outgoings minnimal in camparison.
Tell me Arthur if a bank account is under the control of one signature is there anything to stop that signatory from making a payment into the account as aloan and then say drawing out a simmilar sum .
Should STFC bear costs relating to Dixonswish to buy the freehold -surely these costs should come out of his personal fund -The freehold would have been his property not that of STFC
With nothing to support the spend of £158,000 we can only make guesses about what has happened to the loaned money.What is certain is that STFC is now lumbered with huge debt.
Take care
Edited by Norm at 09:43:06 on 7th October 2021
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Re: STFC Accounts
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Norm, I am not sure how much the Thames Club are paying you. I hope it is more than free usage of the gym. If you care to come down to the ground at 1 o'clock on Saturday I promise to give you a free lesson in accountancy - with more to follow if you need them. However, you have put me in a position to defend Joe - AGAIN - (people will start to think I am sleeping with him)!!
Page 3 of the accounts show 2 officers of the company: a director Joe and Steve Parsons as the secretary. I am sure both are authorised signatories on the club bank statement (possibly along with the Chairman) arguably payments being authorised by any 2 from 3. I think bank statements probably go to the club. I know I have suggested Steve playing, having modelled a kit so beautifully but I would trust him to always act in the best interests of the football club. We need to register and pay fees for league membership, cup entries etc. Joe, I believe, spends most of his time now out of the country, so I would suggest those fees are signed off by other officers of the club.
The is no income statement (new name for profit and loss account, introduced well before I retired 10 years ago). However, we have no sponsors. Our average attendances now are circa 100 to 150 (weekly income say £1,500) out of which the club has to meet all its liabilities. This includes playing staff, match officials, costs of playing including floodlighting. The club will also have day to day running expenses. It also has to respond to communications to and from the landlord when the terms one the lease are varied (change of site of boardroom; use of bar etc.). This will, almost inevitably require outside legal opinion. If you believe that £1,500 a week on match days pays that can you please come and help me with my hpousehold budget.
Under the balance sheet the director (Joe) acknowledges his responsibility for the legal maintenance of proper accounting records.
Page 5, under accounting policies, he signs that although the club is technically bust (Spicer and Pegler accountancy text book term) "the company is dependent on the director (JOE) for continued support and he has committed to making sufficient funds available to the company to enable it to continue to trade and meet its liabilities for the foreseeablee future.
The only bank loan and overdraft (note 6 creditors) is where the company OWE banks £9,795. The note also shows, as you have pointed out, the owe Joe £158,618. This is money out of his pocket.
Note 7 shows he owns the shares via (I presume) one of his companies - Fulcrum Sports Investments Limited. He has not used this company to fund the club, the funding has come from him personally.
I think you owe him a written apology on this forum
and perhaps he might send me a bunch of flowers!!!!
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Re: STFC Accounts
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Thanks Arthur-as I said in my first post I do not understand accounts ,its not my background, and in my first post i apologised if I was barking up the wrong tree.As a layman I am trying to understand what has been happening financially at our club where we are sinking rapidly primarirly due to the fact there is no playing budget but have from what you say annual outgoings of over £150,000. Does not make sense to me - but from what you say it make sense to you.If itspossible to put that sort of money into a club to cover unexplained overheads why not say another £20,000 to help bring in players to boost the chance of staying at this level.
How can you say there are joint signaturies -there is nothing on record to back this up.
Can you also help me over my oriignal point about a signatory being able to loan money to an account and then drawing a simmilar sum out to covercost -could be travel costs,dancing girls or speed boats etc etc-who knows
Surely at a little club such as ours the accounts should be transparent so we can understand the diffuculties of running a club and realise the costs involved
Take care and thanks for taking the time Arthur and for sharing your thoughts with us
Best wishes to all
Norm
Edited by Norm at 10:57:22 on 7th October 2021
Edited by Norm at 10:58:31 on 7th October 2021
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Re: STFC Accounts
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Norm, The accounts are as transparent as those of the Thames Club, who also believe that users do not need to see n income statement. My suggestion on bank signatories is thet which I would expect in any properly run business or charitable institution. If you think Joe has skimmed £15o0 grand - the club owe him that sum - he hasn't had it, and we only owe the bank £9k ........ So ewe would have to believe the funds the business generates has paid off the balance. As to your other questions - we do need more income. Should we not be going more - bringing folk along; helping Kevin get sponsors; or even funding the club ourselves to the tune of £20k for an improved playing squad. Please see Steve (I haven't seen or spoken to him for a couple of weeks) and I am sure he will accept £20k and arrange the proper loan agreement. Why put more on Joe's elastic pockets. Without Joe the club has gone. Do you want to go and watch Ashford, or Bedfont, Chertsey or ........
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Re: STFC Accounts
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Thanks again Arthur-I do not see the logic of comparing our little clubs accounts with those of the Thames Club. Chalk and Cheese as they say. Much more sense to compare with other football clubs at our level to understand how they operate on and off the pitch.Difficult times for all clubs such as ours however others make a success of it.
Walton and Hersham come to mind-2 relegations in 10 years owner wishes to retire,son does not have time to takeover. Club is passed onto a group of around 6 19 year old students who are regular fans from the terraces.They put forward a plan to the owner which he accepted. That was around 18 months -now around 4/5 th in table and attracting good crowds.
Fans are already contributing through the boost the budget scheme -I think Dixon would get a better press if showed his appreciation to the fans for there efforts by say offering to match the fans donations.A small figure compared to the Dierctors loans figure.
Any way thanks Arthur -must get on with my first module of the Rapid Results account appreciation course. I hopefully will be able to make make educated guesses when looking at future accounts.
Best wishes
Norm
Edited by Norm at 12:37:51 on 7th October 2021
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Re: STFC Accounts
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I'm not an accountant, but I can (more or less) read a set of accounts.
The first point to note is that virtually every football club at this level is reliant on some sort of support from its custodians. I compared Staines' accounts with those of Ashford Town (Middlesex), partly because of the geographical and footballing proximity of the clubs and partly because I am a Life Vice-President of ATMFC. Ashford's most recent accounts cover the year ending 30/04/2021.
Where STFC has "Directors Loans", ATMFC has "Other Creditors", to whom they owe almost £30,000. My understanding is that supporters / club officials have made "soft loans" to the club (that is, with flexible repayment terms and little or no interest) and this provision in the accounts is the remaining balance.
What we can infer from that is that the Director of STFC has had to put more money in over a shorter period, than his counterparts at ATMFC; Ashford's equivalent figure for the previous year was a little under £27,000 where for Staines it was nil. It's not unusual - particularly in football - for Directors' Loans to be written off when the ownership changes, especially when the money put in by said Director(s) far exceeds the value of the assets. The most famous (and spectacular) example is the late Eddie Davies writing off around £100 million pounds of Directors Loans made to Bolton Wanderers.
However, Ashford have fixed assets such as plant, machinery, etc, with a 'book value' of more than £106,000; the equivalent value for Staines is just £914. Ashford also had much more cash in the bank.
ATMFC is a company limited by guarantee so has no "owner" or shares; it is run by the Board on behalf of the members.
I guess the points I'm making are:
1. Both clubs have been supported financially by the people looking after them.
2. Ashford have needed less of that support, because they have a more robust business model - they control their own bar and other facilities, so have a greater opportunity to generate income than STFC do with their current situation. Their youth and women's sections are also integral to the club as a whole; I don't know if that's possible for STFC while the Thames Club control the ground and bar?
Very few clubs at this level are financially well off, but the problems are more acute for clubs who groundshare or have the kind of relationship with their landlord that Staines Town appears to have with the Thames Club. Without being able to generate other income than gate receipts, simply surviving is incredibly difficult.
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Re: STFC Accounts
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Thanks for your wise words Gareth-I know its been a few difficult years at Ashford ,however from my visits to your ground it certainly looks as if you have turned the corner and the club is on the up again
Best wishes
Norm
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Re: STFC Accounts
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One of our friends from down the road truly understands. I am glad they got the support for the vandalism at their ground. I only hope Joe can get some form of land purchase for the ground to secure our tenure at Whestsheaf Park, including use of the bar ...... or else we will all be moving to pastures new .....
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Re: STFC Accounts
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to the untrained eye it certainly looks like 150K has been taken from the club straight into one persons pocket
do believe it cost 1quid when booney sold it
look at the condition of the pitch and stadium and squad
150 K has definitely not been spent there has it
if that is being used for anything towards the gym purchase then we are being royally fucked over
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Re: STFC Accounts
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£150,000 hasn't been taken from the club straight into one person's pocket.
It's the other way round - one person's pocket has paid out £150,000 themselves for club overheads - be it legal fees, insurance, general overheads etc.
The only way for that person to get their hands on that £150,000 is if there is enough money in the club bank account for them to be re-imbursed.
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Re: STFC Accounts
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As Leonard Cohen sang "Hallelujah". I hope we can close this thread considering why a company STFC) with, at best, a turnover of £100k have greater disclosure requirements than a company turning over a sum of up to £5m. Both sets of accounts comply with Company Law and Accounting Standards. Secondly both Tony gale senior and Antony Gale are still all over Walton ..... as far as I know. That bit is really irrelevant to the Swans. Thirdly (I haven't confirmed this) if any fan wishes to make donations and/or loans to the club (directly) or via the supporters club for ground repairs and upkeep, I am sure that either Steve or John will be more than pleased to help them. Roll on Saturday - and who will be in the dugout?
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Re: STFC Accounts
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Wrong club Arthur-I was referring to Walton & Hersham not Walton Casuals .
Have a good afternoon .
Norman
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Re: STFC Accounts
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So ..... are you buying Joe out; or going down the Leyton Orient model; or the Burnley model as previously raised and left unanswered. Even if we are gifted the shares, with our income, can we run a bath let alone the club. And with the lack of a secure future (lease break clause in 5 or 6 years) what businessman would invest?
I really would much rather discuss Saturday and the dugout than answering inane questions. going out now to watch paint dry.
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Re: STFC Accounts
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Again, I hope you are being well paid, arguably by the Thames Club or its owners. Most of the money has almost certainly been spent on professional fees looking at lease terms and any other crap forwarded to the club. Those professionals don't come cheap, unless you wasn't to come for accounrtancy tuition from retire4d accountant. Joe is paying out of his own pocket. The Thames Club are failing and being supported by unnamed capitalists and investors. Those investors have yet to have had any return on investment by way of dividend. Therefore the only return they can expect is obn change of use for they land. If they envisage change of use - the Thames Club accounts are false. I will give you those lessons. Please let me know where and when.
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Re: STFC Accounts
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hi arthur
definitely not a thames club fan
one thing i will congratulate you on is your support for the swans i can tell you are very passionate
but at some point the crap will hit the fan with dixon
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Re: STFC Accounts
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norm you are mentally challenged if you think that the owner of the club is able to take that kind of money out of the club. It is a directors loan that means the director loaned the money to the club ... my lord..
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Re: STFC Accounts
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I am sure you are spot on southstreet swan-but it certainly bothers me that a small club like ours can have outlays of over £150,00 in 12 months that included I believe a period of lockdown.From where I sit there are no obvious returns on ground ,players or facilities from that money .
,If your wife drew down £150,000 from your joint account would you not expect to see a couple of new cars on thedrive
holidays booked , some nice trinkets etc etc .
I know that I certainly would.
Best wishes
Norm
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Re: STFC Accounts
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Please remember the videos Joe posted ....... regarding landlord issues. The landlord and their related parties have been giving the club grief for years. They do not want the football club in situ. Legal fees do not come cheap. I am sure the club would welcome any donations to these costs. Also, if the someone you hold dear was being, arguably, unfairly treated - how much would you pay to put things right. Remember Joe has already made a multi million pound offer for the freehold. It is very close to the existing use value shown in the Thames Club 2020 accounts, arguably a reason for the write down in the Thames Club accounts. It was turned down as the land has, possibly (global warming issues for the council) a greater value for a change of use. Joe loves the club, he is trying to spend money we can only dream about to secure the long term future of the football club - and comments like this just shove his efforts back in his face. Are you really old enough to believe that by 2030 you'll be too old for football so **** the Swans? Stop sniping and show some loyalty
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